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Forums suck - Take 2

By ghostshell on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:04pm

17 Comments
I see a lot of comments about how difficult is to use this website compared to the old groups website and how a forum is easier, etc. What a load of BS. A blog and a forum are not that different, but the blog is more flexible and useful. Let's break it down.

A website forum is an area where several sections divide the topics to be discussed. So ideally you would only discuss a specific topic in a particular forum. But in reality this rarely happens. Seems like most people always post where they feel like posting, or if they don't know, they will just pick the best forum based on the names. The topic of the forum is seldom respected and this annoys those that really care about keeping things sane. The consistent abuse of off-topic posts soon degrades the forum into a semi-live chat that serves very little to the intended purpose.

So if a forum is supposed to structure discussions by topic, but most people ignore the topics anyway, then why is the forum useful? It isn't, that's why blogs were invented.

A blog removes the rigid structure of the forum and concentrates on what matters: the content; your post. The main purpose of a blog is to give information, structure is optional but allowed. In a blog you don't tie your post to a topic, you tie the topic(s) to your post. This is known as tagging.

The best way to describe tagging is a sticky note. Imagine if I were to print this post on paper. The title would show and below it this text. And then imagine that when I gave you that printout it has three stickies on it that said "blogging", "musings", "forums suck". When you read those, even though you haven't read my printout, you would infer possible topic of the doc. Sure, I could had put "duck", "nuns", and "stripper pole" instead to mess you up but it really doesn't matter because you got the whole printout.

On this website we got two level of tags: collection and shared. The collection is just a list of static tags, and you pick one to which your blog post most likely belongs. In forum-speak this is like a "container", where many topics are collected. It's mostly to keep some sanity and help with searches. The other type of tag are the shared tags - this is where blogging shines. Shared tags are keywords that describe your post. They can be anything, they are yours. But once created, anyone and everyone in the whole website can use them in their posts. For example, if you were to write a rebuttal to this post (ie., "Are you a forum noob?"), you could use "musings" as one of your post's tags. Then when someone clicked on "musings" it would show both our posts and any other posts that used it. Further, you can tie images and news posts to that tag too. The keyword "musings" could take a life of its own.

Blogs do have some responsibility, their flexibility is not without costs. The first issue that most people realize is that blogs puts the spotlight on YOU. If your blog post sucks because you went off-topic or it's about some random idiotic subject, people won't click on it or vote it down, sending you with it down the tubes. Next time you post, nobody will know. Maybe your mom will know, maybe. The other concern is that on this website, blog posts cost credits. Yes ladies and gentlemen, you must produce something of value to the community in order to earn the right to express yourself. Bummer. Our website has a credit system in place that adds and subtracts credits from your account for various actions you do on the website.

But that will be the topic of my next blog...
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ceRra's picture
ceRra @ Wed, 10/01/2008 - 7:14am · #333 I dont know Ghost im not convinced yet, all i saw so far is a bunch of blogs without anyone commenting on them, and so much unnecesary complexity.
Forum style was much easier for everyone but hey its ok, its your server and your website and thats great but i think this is just another bad idea like autobalance, old maps rotation,etc.
Sorry Ghost : S

::EDIT:: grammar :B
AirJordan's picture
AirJordan @ Wed, 10/01/2008 - 10:41am · #334 Yea like CeRra said. I think it is more boring now. Sorry. I used to have it as my Homepage, but now i changed it to DRU clan serv Forum site.
StarshipTrooper's picture
StarshipTrooper @ Wed, 10/01/2008 - 12:08pm · #335 actually, iget what ghostshell means, and i support the blogs now. this way, everyone will be able to see your post, ranting, updating or off-topicing, itll all be important. ever post something to have no one reply or even read it? never again. some things id like to ask ghost about is how we'll privatize our blogs, in case we want only certain people (lets say... from your clan) to read it, how will that work? also if you could add pre-made tags that will be most popular (such as: tremulous, dretchstorm, tremfusion, anti-cheaters), so there wont be any variations of it that wont sow up (such as: trem, dretch*storm, trem-fusion, cheaters). also, if you could add a "Tags" tab next to the "Recent" tab, itll be a bot more like groups, but not. also, bring back "Active".
The_Me's picture
The_Me @ Wed, 10/01/2008 - 12:09pm · #336
AirJordan wrote:
Yea like CeRra said. I think it is more boring now. Sorry. I used to have it as my Homepage, but now i changed it to DRU clan serv Forum site.

See Ghost, look what you did, you made the site not cool enough to have the honor of being AirJordan's Homapage.

Laughing out loud Where can/should we post:
▓ Videos/ namelogs of botters
▓ Funny/Cool ingame videos/pictures
▓ Off-Topic posts (such as Add a Caption)
▓ Admin Discussions
▓ Disscusion of Stripper Pole Moves
▓ Nuns
ghostshell's picture
ghostshell @ Wed, 10/01/2008 - 7:37pm · #342 We gave forums (and groups) a nice run - over a year. It's time to step up and show what you can bring, with blogs. I can smell your fear, I too was afraid the first time, but write one and you'll see how easy it is.
opus's picture
opus @ Thu, 10/02/2008 - 7:30am · #347 Laughing out loud Where can/should we post:
▓ Videos/ namelogs of botters
▓ Funny/Cool ingame videos/pictures
▓ Off-Topic posts (such as Add a Caption)
▓ Admin Discussions
▓ Disscusion of Stripper Pole Moves
▓ Nuns


Ditto request for what is listed above.

TIA
PolluX's picture
PolluX @ Thu, 10/02/2008 - 4:47pm · #355 Yea, I agree with everything what Trooper is saying Laughing out loud
Jonata's picture
Jonata @ Fri, 10/03/2008 - 7:48am · #363 I appreciate your work Ghost but my small mind has got few confusions...

Quote:
A website forum is an area where several sections divide the topics to be discussed. So ideally you would only discuss a specific topic in a particular forum. But in reality this rarely happens. Seems like most people always post where they feel like posting, or if they don't know, they will just pick the best forum based on the names. The topic of the forum is seldom respected and this annoys those that really care about keeping things sane. The consistent abuse of off-topic posts soon degrades the forum into a semi-live chat that serves very little to the intended purpose.


Don't you think here it will become much more crowded with lots of small blogs coming up regarding "botting,abusing, who is more sexy Ghost or Heckle....?" and the bigger problem is anyone can see these stupid Blogs...even a new visitor. In old system only group members were able to see such post.And after watching such open ( and ofcourse non gaming) topics, i think new visitors will run away. What do you think?????????

Quote:
If your blog post sucks because you went off-topic or it's about some random idiotic subject, people won't click on it or vote it down, sending you with it down the tubes. Next time you post, nobody will know. Maybe your mom will know, maybe.


I think in school days crazy guys like me devoted 3-4 hours to play tremulous and other computer games. Can guys click on their own post several times or keep posting just a "." or yeah " he is right" or just a " Smiling " to keep it up all the time???

Quote:
ok it's better that when you suggest or propose something, that you explain how it can accomplished. just saying "I don't like it and this is why" doesn't solve anything. you say you want more moderation, who will moderate? who will moderate the moderators? me? I don't think so. I get enough complains about admin abuse in the game servers, I don't care about getting them for the website too. What are the advantages with forums that blogs don't have? just mention ONE.


Website members will moderate moderators: Let the 50 most oldest and regular members of this website choose moderators among themselves.
Stupid/flaming threads can be locked. Post not in correct group can be moved.

Forums are more newbie friendly, blogs are not.
Blogs will eat more resources, forums won't.

You know what Ghost in few days (if i am not wrong) this website will be flooding with most boring/stupid game reviews(thats still ok), non gaming topics( and that will be most active). Don't you think?????


Whimsically Yours( I mean Tremulous Eye-wink)

Jonata.
The_Me's picture
The_Me @ Fri, 10/03/2008 - 12:23pm · #366 Well said Jonata.

Ghost,

As we are a "noob" site with common players putting out poorly written reviews and posts, and not a site with paid workers writing well written and thought out opinions. As we are this, we should not be set up to boast our rather pitiful attempts at trying to be a major gaming site. One day, we may be well known, but not as things are going now. From what I can tell, you are trying to create a site which condenses the best of the internet and gaming world into a "user-friendly" web page. To be honest, if I were a new user who was told about this site and came to check it out, I'd look, shake my head then walk away.

We do have some pretty good posts on the site, but none of them are up front. In fact, you have to know where to look to be able to find it. We need to put our best up front and while keep the others in the back. For instance, our game reviews and news should not be the main feature of the website, for they are quite frankly not very good, I haven't read any reviews on this site that have actually impressed me or helped me with a purchase.


We need moderators. Take http://www.forgehub.com/ for example. (I hate to bring up this site again, but I think it is very well run.) Each user has a rank, they get promoted for the amount of comments, posts they have made. While the ranks do not give a user any more powers then the other users, it gives them, well, rank and standing in the community and thus, people strive to participate. The rank is shown via a picture under the user's name.

There moderation system runs nicely as well. Some administrators were chosen by the site leader, and have powers to delete posts, lock threads, and warn users. When a user is warned, he recieves an infraction. A user gets too many of these, and he is banned. Infrations are given for things such as; double, or triple posting (after being told not to), a comment intended to hurt a person, or group of people, spamming, etc..

Only specific posts are seen on the front page, these posts are chosen/written by users who have been chosen, due to there impressive writting, to be (I think the rank is) "Journalists." This allows for only the best of the best to be there to greet new users, and also, a post being on the front of a webpage lets users know it is important or worth reading. Users strive to create better posts so that they may receive the honor of being recognized on the home page.


The credit system on this site is very poorly designed. As it is, Ghost, you are promoting quantity over quality, as for reviews, you reward people three creds just for taking about ten seconds out of their life to write a couple lines and press post. Then you reward other people the same amount of credits for taking a good three hours (excluding playing time) out of their lives to reasearch, write, reread, edit, and what ever else they like to do in order to ensure they post to the best of their ability. This system gives NO incentive to write a good post.

As for enhancing the credit system (If you really must keep it semi the same to what it is now), I have said it before and will say it again I believe users should receive credits based on the rating the community gives their post. Have a max amount of points, and mutiply that by a scaled rating (0 to 1) and the rounded number would be the amount of creds the post is worth. Hell, if you are so opposed to a moderation system, then use the top rated posts of a set time, or posts from the top rated users to put on the front page.


I don't mind bogs, but we cannot only have blogs. Admins of the server have to have some way of communicating to eachother in private (NOT Jabber). They need a place where they can share information all the admins (and only the admins) at the same time, old information and new. Some where where they can store information and not having to worry about losing it when they close a window.
We need a better layout. We need a better system. You need help.
Chessguy's picture
Chessguy @ Fri, 10/03/2008 - 4:17pm · #368
Quote:
We gave forums (and groups) a nice run - over a year. It's time to step up and show what you can bring, with blogs. I can smell your fear, I too was afraid the first time, but write one and you'll see how easy it is.


Thanks for answering my comment in another post... but besides that, I agree with The_me. Please, please, PLEASE DON'T take this as a "We all hate you ghsot and think you are a total dick!" I DON'T want this to become some HUGE AirJordan reenactment scene. This is just us (the community) letting you know what we think and how you can help. I suggest that you at least consider the things we are saying and not just cling to blogs and reviews/news alone.
ghostshell's picture
ghostshell @ Sat, 10/04/2008 - 2:56am · #370 I appreciate all your comments, even though majority which are rants (you can't dress them up politely). This website has to run in the amount of time I can allocate to it. I don't get paid nor this is my job. I work on this on my free time. We will have a moderation system and moderators, but things are done one step at a time. You won't get anything done by complaining or dissing the website. The groups website was turning into a mess and out of control. Even with the ability to flag posts almost nobody used it. It was getting contaminated with off-topic and stupid posts, and forum chit chat. Very few people took the time to participate in real website issues and events. But everyone was ready to voice out when things went wrong.

This time I won't allow the website to go adrift, even if it means weeding out some people. My intent was to build a website where people could talk about gaming, share information and help. Not to run a chat. For chatting we have a cool IRC channel that everyone can join and always has people in it.

This time around, only those that care about website will get the recognition and privilege. The rest can watch from the sidelines.

@The_Me: the credit system is build to reward people. It's not set in stone and will change as the focus of the website changes. Right now we are building a games directory. That will take a lot of work and people should get rewarded for that. The game reviews might not be perfect works of journalism, but they are real, opinions from our members. If you want people to improve their review skills the best you can do is rate their reviews and leave them some constructive comments. We are not pro's, we are gamers talking about the games we play. When we get people to actually write reviews (there aren't many now) then we can worry about quality. Right now I just want people to lose their fear and try.

Many things are being finished behind the scenes and I still have stuff to move from the groups website. As time permits more sections will show up and things will get better organized. The last thing I need right now is to babysit website moderators.

But if you want to help me and the website, please use the god damn Alert link when someone posts off-topic topics.
The_Me's picture
The_Me @ Sat, 10/04/2008 - 11:19am · #371 I was not trying to say that people shouldn't write reviews, but rather that the reviews they write shouldn't be on the front page of the website unless they truly elite.

As for the alerting of Off-Topic posts, I for one am not sure what Off-Topic is anymore. Are there set guidelines as to what On-Topic is considered, if so then please inform me of them or better yet, Put them somewhere easily accessible on the website so users will know what "Off-Topic" really is.
ASpork's picture
ASpork @ Sun, 10/05/2008 - 2:57pm · #381 I Have to Say ghost, I'm with most of the other people here in thinking this isn't a great Idea. Forums are easier to get around in and find where you want to go in my opinion, and I just don't think blogs do that as well.

As for your comment about the forums going out of control, I think something that would help be to have More Mods other that yourself. Mods for certain subjects and whatnot. That's how it works on just about every site I go on. If you have responsible mods for forums who check up on them, they run so much better.

Also, with all these blogs, If I didn't know better, I wouldn't have a clue that this was a site for a Tremulous server!

With the front page, what's on it?
Combat Arms, Crackdown, and Sims 2?

Chessguy has the right Idea here I think

But, then again, it's not my site.
That's just my $.02
The_Me's picture
The_Me @ Sun, 10/05/2008 - 3:36pm · #382
ASpork wrote:
Also, with all these blogs, If I didn't know better, I wouldn't have a clue that this was a site for a Tremulous server!

This site isn't just for a Tremulous server anymore (that site was www.dretchstorm.com). The was the whole point of creating o8, to encompass more then one game.
ASpork's picture
ASpork @ Sun, 10/05/2008 - 5:57pm · #386 True, But on the server, this is advertised as the site for it.
The_Me's picture
The_Me @ Sun, 10/05/2008 - 6:24pm · #387
ASpork wrote:
True, But on the server, this is advertised as the site for it.

It is, as it is the site for the o8 Urban terror server and o8 Padman server.
Fallen-'s picture
Fallen- @ Mon, 10/06/2008 - 5:26pm · #390 I miss when it was www.dretchstorm.com. Life was simple then Smiling

Man, you wanted to build a community on tremulous and voila! it worked! Now you have a bunch of tremulous hacking junkies following you all over the place. Be careful what you wish for hehe.

I guess we will have to get used to this. The content contributions will be less but I guess with more quality. It will be like loading a new map in a full server man, it will kick out all the newbies XD

At least you still take the time to keep it working, and I thank you for that. That does not mean I will not kick your butt in trem Smiling

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